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Author Topic: Mk2 golf VW Custom Suspension Uprights hubs Motorsport design  (Read 4617 times)

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Offline Smudge

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Re: Custom Suspension Uprights
« Reply #30 on: November 12, 2013, 09:49:54 am »
I was thinking about CofG and this came to mind, anyone got one of a Golf doing this trickery?

I have added a couple of lines to gauge a rough CofG.

« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 09:55:21 am by Smudge »
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Offline RobT

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Re: Custom Suspension Uprights
« Reply #31 on: November 12, 2013, 10:16:34 am »
Fantastic- there you go - 4"  ;D

Have raised it a touch since then but thats as good an estimate as we will get.

Interesting thing about the ibiza beam is that the bushes are properly fore/aft, unlike some of those I have seen from a golf which tend not to point exactly for/aft, with a bit of 'toe in' so to speak. No idea how this might affect the beam in movement.

This might be of interest also, Mk3 golf VR vs late (large bush) Mk2 Ibiza beams









The golf has longer 'arms', the axle center is higher on the ibiza, the golf beam is wider overall, the bushes/fixing brackets are totally different (hence why it is not already on my car.....)
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 10:33:41 am by RobT »
2008 Audi A6 2.0TDI S-Line
2004 Audi A4 Avant 1.8T Quattro S-Line
1996 Seat Ibiza 16V F1.5 Race car

Offline RobT

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Re: Custom Suspension Uprights
« Reply #32 on: November 12, 2013, 10:43:31 am »
My Mk3 golf plus axle front upright mods - drop pin, lower spherical bearing mount correctly angled so bearing is a zero movement at static ride height, along with being lengthened to make the wishbone longer due to angled drop pin, and steering arm pin to allow for quick adjustments for bump steer.





But this is what it really needs for the steering arm  ;)

And note lovely shimmed adjustment for lower balljoint attachment for fine camber adjustment, yummy





2008 Audi A6 2.0TDI S-Line
2004 Audi A4 Avant 1.8T Quattro S-Line
1996 Seat Ibiza 16V F1.5 Race car

Offline Tristan

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Re: Custom Suspension Uprights
« Reply #33 on: November 12, 2013, 12:38:48 pm »
How will the car react with raised or lowered rear RCs? On rear beam cars like ours.

Offline Smudge

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Re: Custom Suspension Uprights
« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2013, 09:11:43 pm »
Fill y boots bud. Cad has to be better than my scribble. It would be nice to know rc's at different angles of beam/ as the suspension moves.
 

Let me know how big the distance is that the shock goes through from at rest to full compresses. I will then sketch up two drawings, one at full compression one at half compression.
See my MK2 Golf 16v in the members section.


Offline Smudge

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Re: Custom Suspension Uprights
« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2013, 09:43:11 pm »
How will the car react with raised or lowered rear RCs? On rear beam cars like ours.

Reading about the subject the front to rear RC relationship is ment to mainly affect feel, I have not ever had the chance to alter and test so don't have any first hand experiance myself. Supposedly, Pug 205's had a lower rear RC compared to the front and this made it 'twitchy' in turn in and corners. Cars with higher rear RC are meant to be nicer to turn in... Which setup up makes you faster around a corner seems difficult to find data for.
See my MK2 Golf 16v in the members section.


Offline Smudge

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Re: Custom Suspension Uprights
« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2013, 10:08:02 pm »
Here are some std of the shelf VAG uprights which could be options for geo changes.



The upright I'm in the process of designing is to be made from aluminium for a few reasons. I have considered for a long time using std forged aluminium uprights from the more modern Golfs and Audi's, as much as I like these, there come problems.

The first being, what CV to use? No std items seem to fit both hub spline and std MK2 driveshaft spline. Custom shafts would be a way around this but that bumps up the price and is not where I want to go.

Other problems include the geo they will produce. It will not be tailored to what I think i want, caster would be less than I want as a minimum (not more than 4-5 degrees at a guess), the roll centre will be anyone's guess, in short they will need parts making to correct geo and still might not offer the range I want from a setup.

The third main issue I had was that they use a different way of mounting the shock, it sits in a tube and removes the camber adjustment the mk2 has, this I like but, it would mean new custom suspension to suit.

To get around the first issue of CV joints I looked at replacing the hub with a mk2 item, the mk2 hub is smaller where it pushes into the inner bearing race than the newer uprights, they run larger bearings which would be better but means the mk bearing will not fit either, que lots of searching of bearings looking for one to fit, none could be found. I did think about sheathing the hub with an interference fit spacer to take the hub out to the same size as the bearing, but quickly decided its going to probably be a weak point not worth going anyway near, plus the other geo issues these uprights offer I decided to right them off for now.


See my MK2 Golf 16v in the members section.


Offline Tonyb

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Re: Custom Suspension Uprights
« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2013, 09:40:50 pm »
I think they have potential.

The CV splines look like they might suit the Gemini shafts I have with a bit of parts bin shopping, Audi S2 spec Robt tells me.

The struts suit a number of more modern race cars dampers and I think there will be a few that will suit, I have some plans and my eye on some nice kit from Seat Sport ;).

The geometry can be adapted, the wishbones I have are fully adjustable and coupled with the adjustable top mounts will give plenty of options.

Probably not a project for this season but will start getting parts and plans together.

This season's mods are a very special beam and rear suspension parts. More to follow.......

Offline Smudge

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Re: Custom Suspension Uprights
« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2013, 09:49:43 pm »
All good Tony, I do like them myself and if I could/would move the top mount position on the car chassis I would probably go for them myself. Without moving the top mount location larger caster angles will not be achievable.

I like the sound of a new beam, I have been dreaming up thin torsion beams that would act more like an IRS system with a roll bar, look forward to seeing what you have done!  :)
See my MK2 Golf 16v in the members section.


Offline Smudge

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Re: Custom Suspension Uprights
« Reply #39 on: December 19, 2013, 08:51:19 am »
The inspiration for the billet upright I'm designing came from Goodwood Festival of speed earlier in the year. I saw this simple design (image below) which had parts bolted onto it, it got me thinking, it made me realise an upright could be produced cheaply. I did not start designing until later on in the year after a trip to Ferrari World in Abu Dhabi, there, I had a go at the pits stop challenge, where you take of and replace a wheel from an F1 car as quickly as possible, on this mock F1 car the hub was interesting and jolted me to start designing.



Modern VAG cars use bolt in front hubs and wheel bearing carriers with aluminium uprights. I like this idea for many reasons, the main being that no geometry has to be altered to change the bearing (which would be a quick job), the steel bearing carrier is strong enough to hold the bearing but uses minimal heavy steel material. The bulk of the upright shape is then aluminium. I looked at using the std bearings and hubs from other VAG cars like the example below, the main issue was that the outer CV would not fit, the only solution would have been to replace the CV and use custom drive shafts, this would push up the cost of the project.



My solution to this was to use the mk2 golf steel upright, but turn it down so that it is just a bearing carrier, weld on a flange and it's ready to be bolted on. The beauty of this is that the std wheels, CVs and drivesafts will all fit, I have a pair of old 8v hubs sitting in the loft ready to test and it might be argued in Motorsport that you are using the std upright, it is just modified with an elaborate lower ball joint spacer and brake spacer all in one.

I set about cutting up a hub and turning it on the lathe, the wood is a quick laser cut template for what the flange may look like. This was really proof of concept, if this was possible it was game on.  :)









« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 11:16:34 pm by Smudge »
See my MK2 Golf 16v in the members section.


Offline Smudge

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Re: Custom Suspension Uprights
« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2013, 08:52:40 pm »
This was a test to see how much caster would be gained if the bush was moved 10mm back in the wishbone, the eccentric bush will move the lower ball joint forwards 12.5mm, adding just under 1 degree of caster increase.

With this in mind I set about drawing this up accurately, the bush could only be moved back a smaller amount than hoped, but it still resulted in a 7mm caster incrase, this combined with different wishbones means I no longer need to make a LBJ with caster increase, which is pleasing because I was never satisfied with the solutions strengths.



Mk3 golf 16v VR6 wishbones add caster by around 29mm. Use these with TAC upright to increase caster, add caster bearings to push wheel forward in arch and gain max caster.(up to 9 degrees or over hopefully!)

Further research into the MK3 16v wishbone meant I purchased a pair so that I could measure and compare them to std MK2 items. The MK3 16v item gives a 19mm increase in caster and 24.99mm increase in track, when compared to std mk2 wishbones.

The MK3 16v have a different LBJ mounting pattern when compared to the MK2 items, the MK3 16v wishbone outer bolt holes are 58mm apart vs 52mm, below is a drawing to illustrate this only.



« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 09:53:08 pm by Smudge »
See my MK2 Golf 16v in the members section.


Offline Tim Moll

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Re: Custom Suspension Uprights
« Reply #41 on: December 20, 2013, 09:04:49 pm »
Awesome work Tom  8)

I think I may have to have a think about doing something similar for my Mk1 racer to get rid of the horrible ball joint extenders I'm currently planning on using that I have some serious reservations about!

Offline Smudge

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Re: Custom Suspension Uprights
« Reply #42 on: December 20, 2013, 09:48:34 pm »
I have never been to keen about some of the ball joint extenders out there, plus at the same time I get to set up the geometry to what ever I want  ::)

Anyway, here are some pictures of the Mk3 16v wishbones vs the MK2 wishbones.

MK3 16v





MK2





And with the bushes aligned the important part.



See my MK2 Golf 16v in the members section.


Offline Tim Moll

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Re: Custom Suspension Uprights
« Reply #43 on: December 20, 2013, 11:08:40 pm »
Very similar effect to the spacers I had laser cut Tom to mount an early Mk2 balljoint to a Mk1 wishbone....








Offline Smudge

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Re: Custom Suspension Uprights
« Reply #44 on: December 21, 2013, 12:28:49 am »
Great work ;)

Very similar to what I came up with for the spherical bearings, here are some of the test pieces.

« Last Edit: December 21, 2013, 12:39:02 am by Smudge »
See my MK2 Golf 16v in the members section.


 

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