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Author Topic: Flywheel bolts  (Read 928 times)

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Offline Tim Watson

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Flywheel bolts
« on: August 23, 2012, 11:29:48 pm »
Hey folks.

Just wondering if anyone has come up with a better item for the flywheel cover plate to clutch bolts. I'm sure we are all aware that the standard ones are made of slightly mature cheese, then bend and snap. The issue I seem to have is that they are an odd size, so was just wondering if anyone had any good info on where we can get some better quality bolts to stop this happening.

Any advice or info will be greatly received.

Thanks.

Tim
Oak green mk2 2 litre gti with a JMR head!

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Offline Tim Moll

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Re: Flywheel bolts
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2012, 10:31:44 am »
Hi Tim,

Interesting you should mention this as I was doing a load of reading and searing of t'internet yesterday on this very topic!

It seems that some people have had issues whilst others running similar spec engines have not  ???

The bolts in question are10.9 grade so are not a bad grade of fastener, the thread is M7 x 1.0 so alternatives in a higher grade such as 12.9 are not going to be readily sourced unfortunately.  I know there has been mention of drilling out the M7 thread and tapping to a larger thread but this would need a significant amount of machining of both the flywheel and the pressure plate.  The alternative would be to fit a number of solid steel dowels to both the flywheel and pressure plate which again would require additional machining but potentially a better solution?

The final thing worth pointing out is that it has been suggested that one of the issues that contributes to the failure of these bolts on high reving engines is the use of NON lightened flywheels and that by lightening the flywheel you will prolong the life of these M7 fasteners, I would also suggest fitting new items when re-building an engine and also modifying the pressed steel gearbox to engine back plate to provide an access hole so that the bolts can be cheked without removing the gearbox  ;)

Tim
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 10:36:13 am by Tim Moll »

Offline chrismc

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Re: Flywheel bolts
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2012, 07:47:49 pm »
I managed to shear 6 out of 9 with a missed gear change on my old ITB'd 16v- scary biscuits :o

I have known other valvers to do the same- though only those with 2L bottom ends & revving to 7800 instead of the KR 7200 limit

Maybe an issue of the slightly increased torque combined with the weak bolts & poor stock locating dowel.

I used to own the OP's 16v & that flywheel has been lightened & modded with 2 steel dowels & the bolts were correctly torqued/loctited on assembly- however at a recent Curborough sprint day we attended I sensed all was not well :-\

It also has a 2L block so we shall have to do some investigations!

An access hole in the bellhousing is what my 2 16v trackday friends have gone for
1995 BB1 Honda Prelude 2.2 VTEC track hack
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Offline daligh

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Re: Flywheel bolts
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2013, 11:46:02 am »
I looked at this issue a a couple of years ago and make the following observations:

The 1988 the VWMS brochure lists the standard bolt for the flywheel/cover-plate joint: N 100 134 01
The 1989 supplement and the Group A Workshop Manual list an SP part number: N 100 134 01 SP
The Manual assembly instructions refer to these as 'Special Bolts' and it does not suggest using Loctite 'Blue' on these bolts, but does advocate its used on the cover-plate/crankshaft bolts.

The Sachs Performance clutches, 606 & 616, are made from 5.5 mm thick material, not the 5 mm of the standard unit. This extra 0.5 mm adds 30% more flexural stiffness to the bell of the cover-plate and, because of the better production quality of the these clutches, the threads formed are more than 0.5 mm deeper.

These units use a three plate drive link so the bending forces transmitted between pressure-plate and cover bell are less than with a single plate link.

The VWMS assembly uses a 2.5 mm thick intermediate plate at the cover-plate/crankshaft joint which reduces the flex in this area.

All VWMS Mk2 documents I have seen call for a standard flywheel.

The rev limiter for these engines is pre-set to 8200 rpm.

As the bolted joint between cover-plate and flywheel is designed to transmit radial shear loads through friction at the interface any flexing local to the bolts will tend to 'work' the joint so loosening could occur.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2013, 11:52:12 am by daligh »

Offline Tim Moll

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Re: Flywheel bolts
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2013, 11:30:59 pm »
I recently had the opportunity to tour the ARP manufacturing facilities in California and following some discussion with Jason I am in the process of drawing the standard OEM fasteners and sending them to ARP for them to evaluate some uprated items  ;)

Offline GEL

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Re: Flywheel bolts
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2013, 01:02:07 pm »
Excellent info and progress guys  :)
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Offline Smudge

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Re: Flywheel bolts
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2013, 09:16:43 am »
Excellent info and progress guys  :)

^ This  ;D
See my MK2 Golf 16v in the members section.


Offline daligh

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Re: Flywheel bolts
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2013, 10:40:11 am »
Tim Moll mentions people cutting inspection holes in the pressed steel shield between clutch pressure plate and block.

I did this a few years ago and photos below should be self explanatory:






Offline TSC

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Re: Flywheel bolts
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2013, 02:35:08 pm »
I've popped flywheel bolts even on a mostly standard 1.8 KR, with a lightened flywheel only, on track - so I'm not surprised they go on something a bit revvier. Only found out when I heard a rattle from the gbox coming off track. Thought the box was eating itself, but no - flywheel bolts rattling around. I do drive like a prick though, in a car not prepared for it. Give me a dose of that Loctite, eh Dave?

Offline RobT

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Re: Flywheel bolts
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2013, 06:21:09 pm »
The reverse flywheel is a daft idea. Bin it and fit an 02a setup.
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Offline smellyermaa

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Re: Flywheel bolts
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2013, 07:45:48 pm »
I've never had a problem with them, but the latest engine upgrade might change that…

Offline Stooza

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Re: Flywheel bolts
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2013, 10:50:46 pm »
This is excellent news, the flywheel bolts are my only worry on my motor
Mk2 2.0 16v GTi (built for track day fun)
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Offline Tim Moll

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Re: Flywheel bolts
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2014, 10:49:23 pm »
Just a quick update......Jason and I met with ARPs Director of Speciality Products at Autosport earlier in the week and handed over some sample OE bolts for them to analyse and come up with a proposal for uprated fasteners.

Will keep you updated as soon as we hear anything  ;)

Offline GEL

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Re: Flywheel bolts
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2014, 03:08:11 pm »
Excellent ... thank you   :)
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Offline daligh

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Re: Flywheel bolts
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2014, 12:25:16 pm »
I hate to put a damper on things folks, but higher grade bolts may only improve matters a little in as much as might only delay the onset of fracture. I say may, because higher strength materials can sometimes be more prone to fatigue failures than softer materials. The failure mode of this joint is without doubt due to fatigue.

The mechanism which causes fracture of these bolts is very complex, but, is in the main, due to flexibility in the standard system. The fatigue is due to flexture at the joint face which allows small rotations of the flywheel on the cover plate. Because the bolt is not a tight fit in the flywheel, the head of the bolt will be pushed backwards and forwards which will generate bending fatigue where the bolt threads into the cover plate. If the bolt was of a design where it was a perfect fit in the flywheel, such as a precision shoulder bolt in a reamered hole, the the loads would be transferred as shear and not bending.

Firstly, the torque permissible in the joint is governed entirely by the material of the cover plate.  Compared with the standard bolts it is of a lower grade so limits the torque which can be applied.  At the same time the material of the standard cover plate is only 5mm thick, and even with the slight upsetting of the plate where the thread is, only gives approx 6.5mm of thread length. Usually one looks for about 1.5 x thread diameter to prevent strip out at normal torque. In this instance, the thred length is less than diameter so is at the limit for the torque specified in VAG documents. If one attempts to exceed this torque to a figure applicable to the high grade bolts used then strip out will occur.  The competition cover plate is 5.5mm thick and is also better made at the threaded area giving 8mm of thread length.

Another factor in the complexity of the system is the stiffness of the cover plate arrangement.  The standard unit is 5mm thick and fastened to the crankshaft with a thin plate under the heads of the bolts.  The competition cover plate is 5.5mm thick and fixed to the crankshaft using a much thicker plate under the heads of the bolts. Now, as the cover plate hangs free off the end of the crankshaft it will bend down slightly due to gravity and when rotating will tend to whirl.  The competition arrangement is some 34% stiffer, due to stiffness being proportional to the cube of the thickness. Also due to the stiffer bolting arrangement at the crank has, in effect, a shorter lever-arm carrying the loads and has a much higher whirling speed. Whirling will cause the system to see unwanted loads in a radial direction in the bolted joint.

To sum up.
1: POWER - The standard set-up comprises a badly design joint with a massive void in the flywheel casting where the bolt passes through.  It is limited in the presuure applied at the joint by the material of, and thread length in, the cover plate. These factors lead to the joints which flex and are unable to carry high rotational loads from a very powerful motor.
2: REVS - The standard set-up is less stiff than the competition arrangement and is more prone to whirling. This leads to the systems imposing higher radial loads from a higher revving motor.

 

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